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INTERVIEW WITH YOSHIO SHIRAKAWA AND MASASHI OGURA 
On the occasion of the exhibitions Yoshio Shirakawa and Les Avant-
Rossitza Daskalova: The avant-garde is an important concept in Western art and the artists whose work qualified as avant-gardist are among the most significant figures in modern art history. What was the scope of the avant-garde and the influence of its artists in Japan?
Masashi Ogura: While referring to the avant-garde in Japan, two periods can be discerned: before the Second World War, and after the war. Prewar Japan was undergoing a strong westernization in all realms of culture: litterature, theater, and the fine arts. The avant-garde emerged in a context where there was a desire to transform Japanese society, which was under the influence of socialist ideas coming from Russia and Europe. The avant-garde mouvement in Japan was inspired by the French, German and Russian mouvements.
Yoshio Shirakawa: During the Meiji period (1867-1911), a European system, more specifically French and Italian, was established in the spheres of education, museums, and the arts. In the beginning of the 20’s, this modern system was already fully operative. The avant-garde which emerged at this time was declared underground, against the official system and against the government.
M.O.: In the 30’s, the economic crisis provoked the rise of Japanese militarism and nationalism. The Japanese empire repressed the avant-garde mouvement. In 1939, with the beginning of the war in the Pacific, the activities of the avant-garde artists came to a halt.
Y.S.: During the 1920’s, the artists suggest that art exists in society and that it can be political. For the first time, they tested and felt the limits of art, while reflecting on the definition of art and its role in society. As a result, some artists wanted to learn the socialist theories, marxism in particular, with the aim to apply them to their artistic production. Thus, they believed that by changing art they could change society, and vice versa.
R.D.: What traces have the prewar avant-garde artists left?
M.O.: With the end of the war in 1945, those who had to keep silent during the war could resume their activities in all spheres of culture; among these people were the artists of the avant-garde. It is they who kept the memory of the prewar avant-garde. They established the continuity between the avant-garde movements before and after the war.
R.D.: How are the avant-garde movements of the past perceived in Japan? Do they have a significant impact on contemporary Japanese art and an influence on the work of today’s artists?
M.O.: The art of today is a product of the consumer society and, in the 80’s, the Japanese society was very prosperous. At the same time, the process of westernization of culture continued; before the war the western influnces were mainly French and German, and after the war they were American. When we talk about the present situation, the Japanese avant-garde does not attract much interest. Nevertheless, there is a small number of artists and critics who examine the avant-garde and underline the importance of knowing the past in view of better understanding the present; they see the avant-garde as a necessary tool for the analysis of contemporary art. On the other hand, in our post-modern context, one might see a tendency to be interested in the past, and specifically in the avant-garde. For example, there are artists who have reconstructed avant-garde performances in a post-modern, semi-ironic fashion. What makes these projects ambiguous is the fact that they were presented in commercial galleries.
Y.S.: The Japanese avant-garde movements were not known in Japan, especially before the 80’s. The interest in the Japanese avant-garde was significantly bigger in the West than in Japan. However, in the 80’s, under the influence of French philosophers, the contemporary art critics proclaimed that the avant-garde no longer existed, that its concepts belonged to the past. The predominant opinion today in Japan is that this art production was an expression of a social utopia based on a socialist ideology which is useless nowadays. The critics affirm that it is pointless to discuss political problems in art. The avant-garde is considered as a phenomenon of the past and what is most recognized today in Japan is work which appears new and stimulating, such as art influenced by the mass-media. Hence, the predominant aesthetic is superficial, and therefore I think that it is essential for the present situation to reflect on past experiences and to take a critical standpoint. That is why it is important today to remember the avant-garde production and to increase its visibility.
R.D.: Mr. Shirakawa, in 1983 you organized the exhibition "The Dada Movement in Japan" at the Düsseldorf. How was this show received in the West and in Japan?
Y.S.: In the west, the response was very positive. In Japan, the critics declared that, because I was neither a critic nor a scholar, the exhibition was not professional.
R.D.: And your work, how is it perceived in Japan?
Y.S.: When I came back to Japan in 1983, after my studies in Europe, I had many diffuculties. In Europe, I worked on my student projects but there was not much heart in what I was producing, Although it was perhaps during this process that I learned to express myself. In Japan, I was able to create what I believed was good and right but when I presented my work and talked about form, space and culture it was judged as primary structure and as outmoded. My work was seen as Western, and mostly German, because I studied art in Strasbourg and then in Düsseldorf. Very few people appreciated my work as the product of personal research. I would like to point out that what counts in Japan today is fashion. People look at the artistic produciton elsewhere and professionals present mostly exhibitions of foreign art. Consequently, the aesthetic criteria gravitates around the question : is this artwork fashionable or not?
M.O.: Since the 1970s, the artistic production in Japan is very diferent from Yoshio Shirakawa’s style. One might notice a naturalist trend, somewhat similar to Arte Povera, which focused on the material as a means of expression. During this period, the notion of a relationship between form and material was widespread. Yoshio Shirakawa accentuated the problem of structure in his artwork.
Y.S.: I tried to analyse the relationship between form and structure, and to consciously construct a space in which to seek the expression of Japanese perceptions.
R.D.: What are the references and the meanings in your artworks exhibited at CIAC?
R.D.: Thus, through the image of the devil, you find insights into the human spirit and the times in which we live?
Y.S.: This demoniac character who dwells in hell is trying to find the means to escape but there are not any. At the same time, he is always very hungry and very thirsty but everything he eats and drinks turns into fire. He lives in a state of constant craving and he could never be satisfied. I find that this image reflects our times, where the desire to have more is boundless.
R.D.: I suppose that the fact that you chose to paint the "devil-hunger" on a fabric with floral motifs might produce contrary interpretations of the artwork.
Y.S.: On the one hand, the fabric with floral motifs is reminiscent of the traditional kimono. On the other hand, the flower patterns symbolize happiness and paradise. In these respects, my work suggests the idea that hell and paradise exist next to each other, and it is this ambiguity which I wanted to communicate. These floral motives can be seen in the 5th and the 6th centuries in China and Persia. There is, for example, a prayer object with floral designs on it, which is symbolic of the body of Buddha. It recalls the story of Buddha who meets the tiger, and the tiger tells him that he is hungry. Buddha then gives him his body as food. The moral of the story is that Buddha has many lives because he sacrificed himself and died many times.
R.D.: In your article, Mr. Ogura, you suggest different ways of interpretating Shirakawa’s work. You also discuss the realtionship between place and identity. Moreover, you mention that Shirakawa belongs to a category of artists "who have realized that their choice was to live divided between the Western culture and the Oriental one."
O.M.: At the core of the relationship between place and identity lies the problem of public space. The artwork creates a public space, while raising questions related to identity, the artist and his relationship to the artwork. Shirakawa’s work emerges as both personal research and public space.
Y.S.: The exhibition constists of three parts, which embody personal memories, references to Japanese art history, and the artworks’ relationship to the CIAC’s space. I believe that I achieved unity in the representaiton of the link between the past and present. In the series Form-Place I tried to imagine the space of the CIAC, and represented these projections of myself as an other. I made the the drawings on white fabric which comes from old curtains.
R.D.: This artwork then takes possession of the public place and at the same time creates a space which dwells between the public and the private. Through association, the artwork can anchor itself in public space while expressing personal experiences and alluding to the experience of the other. Thus, this work suggests that place and identity are inextricably linked.
Y.S.: Yes. For example, my parents have a clothing store (from here comes the idea of the curtains and the fabric with a floral design). This store changed location three times, and I had heard that the CIAC also changed its location.
O.M.: In this sense, this artwork is a dedication to CIAC.
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Y.S.: The idea for the artwork "Gaki" stems from a series of drawings from the Middle Ages, which contain images of hell. When I reflect on the situation of our times, I do not find much difference metween the Middle Ages and today because the problems of war and famine still exist, and these are the themes treated in the drawings. After modernization, the ideas of progress and materialism negate the afterlife and nobody gives any importance to it. These Medieval images awakens our consciousness of the present situation in the world. I believe that it is important to reflect on the present during our existence, but also to think of the future and what will happen after our present life. This is not only a personal matter, but a question of the other. Evoking the awareness of the relationship between self and the other, these images of hell, and the one of the devil which I chose to represent in my work, make us more sensitive to the lives of other people.